Unraveling Family Secrets

Unraveling Family Secrets #

The first time I approached Family Constellations was in 2001. I was studying in Mexico and there I had the opportunity to work with Lucero Rakasa, a Colombian therapist who had trained directly with Bert Hellinger.

My first constellation was an "emotional beating" and at the same time a starting point to discover a whole world of healing with ancestors. Of course, I had to do my own healing before I started working with others, more so with a history of displacement and violence that they had lived through; especially my maternal grandparents, who were burned alive in the 50's in the middle of the bipartisan war that the country experienced at that time.

And in this search, there are texts that I find very simple and clear to share with those who are approaching the world of healing with ancestors.

So, I leave you this interview conducted in Chile and that summarizes in a simple way part of what is worked in the healing.

Bert Hellinger interviewed about Family Constellations, his phenomenological method of doing systemic psychotherapy. #

By Humberto del Pozo in Santiago de Chile, September 1999.

**What is the family psyche?

We have observed, in working with the family, that its members are directed by a common principle or force, and I call this a family consciousness. We can observe that a circumscribed number of people are subject to unconscious forces that lead them to behave in a certain way. For example, if in a family, a family member has been excluded or forgotten, say a child who died at an early age, and is no longer counted among his siblings, then later in the family, already in the next generation, another member of the family assumes the same fate of that child. That person then wants to die, without anyone knowing why.

And we do a Family Constellation. This means that in a group, a person focuses on himself and selects representatives for his family members - including someone for himself - and places them in a space in relation to each other, following his own intuition. And as soon as people have assumed their place, they feel like the people they represent, without even knowing them. Thus, through Family Constellation, we get a representation of what is really happening in the family.

**How is the therapy you do then for the unconscious behaviors you mentioned?

Let's say in this example, the person selects representatives for his father, mother, brothers and sisters, and one for himself. Then he places them in space, and they all face the same direction. That is very strange, so when we see it we know immediately that someone has been forgotten or excluded. Then suddenly they remember: "Oh, yes! ... there was a sister who was born disabled and died after three months..." Then I select a representative for the deceased daughter and place her in front of the others. And everyone is relieved because now she can be included, and another child who has become ill, for example, with diabetes, now has a much better chance of coping with that illness in a positive way.

**I have seen that you require very little information from the client before you ask them to set up their Family Constellation. Is that enough, how is that possible?

Yes, since this insight emerges more easily if one asks for the most essential information, and if that is done only just before setting up the constellation, not before.

The essential questions are:

Who belongs to the family?

2. Are there any children who died during pregnancy, or any who died early? Has there been anyone in the family with a difficult fate, for example someone disabled in any way?

Were any of the parents or grandparents married or engaged in a previous relationship, or involved in a significant relationship prior to their current marriage?

Any additional questions hinder openness to the phenomenological information that emerges. This is true for both the therapist and the representatives. It is also why the therapist foregoes any prior conversation with the client or extensive questioning. Furthermore, it is best if the client remains silent during the constellation, and that the representatives refrain from asking the client any questions.

How does it happen that a person is chosen, in his or her family, to represent an excluded person?** ** How does it happen that a person is chosen, in his or her family, to represent an excluded person?

The force that operates by selecting someone to represent the excluded person is the family consciousness, and it is unconscious. You see it by its effects. This family consciousness follows certain laws. One of them is that each member of a family has an equal right to be part of the system. Now, if a member is forgotten or excluded he no longer belongs. Then the family consciousness has a tendency to complete the family. This is one of the laws. And we can in fact see, by its effects, which member of the family is subject to it and who is not. Only certain members of the family are affected and may be entangled in the fate of other members of the family.

**Is it the family that chooses that person or is it the person that chooses to be a representative of the past?

Neither one nor the other. It is the soul of the family or the consciousness of the family that picks that person. And there is no one to blame for choosing someone. It is a force that requires someone to do it, and the weaker one - more often than not - is the one who takes it upon himself.

If it's a child, it's often the youngest who takes it on. The one who can least resist these forces. But I do not want to make this a generalization. I have often observed it, but it also happens that whoever is born first, very often it is he; but it is always someone in a weaker position who takes it upon himself.

**Who is included in the family consciousness?

The family consciousness includes a limited number of people:

1. children, including those who died during pregnancy and those who died early,

2. parents and their siblings,

3. grandparents,

4. sometimes the great-grandparents or one of the great-grandparents, and sometimes even ancestors coming from further back.

And, what seems very strange, people who are not relatives belong to the family consciousness as well:

5. all - and this is very important - those who made place in advantage of the members already mentioned. This includes, in particular, former partners of the parents or grandparents, as well as all those whose misfortune or death brought the family an advantage or gain.

6. victims of violence or murder by any member of the family.

**Can you share some of your experiences with ex-partners?

Yes, experiences I had recently with people who suffered a loss to someone in the family. For example, the father's ex-wife, from whom he separated. The new wife has an advantage because the other one suffered a loss; thus, the first wife belongs to the family. And she will always be represented. This is one of the laws of which I have never seen an exception, she will be represented by a son or a daughter of the second marriage. So, for example, one of the daughters of the second wife will suddenly feel like the first wife. She becomes furious with her father and no one knows why. This is again the result of family consciousness. This is family consciousness.

**How does a Family Constellation work with such issues?

The family constellation shows the state of the family, where the problem lies. In the case I just mentioned as an example, I would introduce into the family system a representative of the first wife. And then the man, her ex-husband, looks at her and says, "I'm sorry I hurt you. I honor you as my first wife." And the second wife says, "You are the first, I am the second. And please be kind if I keep my husband, and please look kindly on my children." And then the daughter who represented the ex-wife no longer needs to do that and she can say to the woman she represents ... that is to the ex-wife of her father in the Constellation, "I am the daughter of my father and my mother." And he can say to the father: "You are my Dad, I am only your daughter. I have nothing to do with your ex-wife." In such cases, the daughter also becomes her mother's rival because her father sees her as his first wife. Now she can say to her mother, "You are my mother, I am your daughter, please be nice."

I have observed that in cases like this the children develop neurodermitis, a skin disease ... a constant itching. It's very strange. I discovered it by chance. If there is reconciliation between the two wives, the neurodermitis heals or is relieved. This shows that actually many diseases are due to family consciousness. So, by doing this work, many people can be helped, so that they can lead a better quality life.

**Are your therapeutic methods also applicable for people with serious diseases?

Yes, especially in cases where the problems or illnesses are caused by systemic implications or when this is at least a contributing cause.

What are the symptoms that respond best to this systemic psychotherapy?** ** Yes.

We have seen that some very life-challenging illnesses, e.g., cancer, also have systemic causes. The systemic context is shown in the dynamic of: "I follow you"; this means that a person wants to follow another family member who is ill or dead, falling ill or seeking to die himself. Or a child who sees someone in his family with the tendency to follow another person in this way, and tries to hold him back by saying, "I'd better go in your place." Added to all this is the desire to atone or make up for a fate, in turn seeking a similar fate. Knowing these fundamental dynamics, it is possible to strip them of their power and alleviate much suffering and pain.

Other symptoms are related to an interrupted movement toward a parent. Such is the case, for example, of heart aches or headaches, which often express a restrained love, and backaches often develop when a person refuses to bow deeply in respect to his or her parent.

**You have also observed that there are dynamics that recurrently lead to accidents or patterns of misfortune. Can you tell us about the dynamics in such cases?

Serious illnesses, suicides or suicide attempts, or accidents are some of the things we often see in psychotherapy that are motivated by love - the love of a young child. Children love according to a magical belief system. To the child, love means, "Wherever you lead, I will follow. Whatever you do, I will do," or "I love you so much that I want to be with you always." This is: "I will follow you in your sickness" and "I will follow you to your death." When you want someone to love in this way, he or she is naturally vulnerable and prone to contracting a serious illness.

But how can the person who is loved in this way feel? How can he or she feel that his or her illness or death is causing a child to become ill? How will he or she feel? Bad, isn't it? Exactly!

In the constellations, we invariably observe that the deceased, the sick, and those who have suffered a difficult fate, wish the survivors well. One death, misfortune or misfortune is enough. The dead are well disposed toward the living. It is not only the child who loves, but also those who have suffered and died. For systemic healing to succeed, the child must recognize the love of his dead relative and must honor his fate or destiny.

**It is not clear to me what it means when it says, "to recognize their love and honor their fate.

When a child dies, the other family members tend to be afraid - in part, because they too, perhaps unconsciously, feel the kind of love that makes them want to follow the child. To contain their fear, they numb their feelings. In effect, they shut the child out of their hearts and souls. They may talk about the child, but they have separated or silenced their feelings. So, even when the child is dead, he or she still has a deadly influence on the family system: the death of feelings. For love to thrive, the child must have a place in the family, just as if he or she were living. Surviving family members must live out their feelings for the child, and their grief and mourning. They can put up a picture of the child, or plant a tree in his or her memory. But the most important thing is for the survivors to carry the deceased with them into their lives, and let their love for the child live on.

Many people act as if the dead are gone, but where can they go? Obviously, they are physically absent, but they are also still present in their continuing effects on the living. When they have an appropriate place within the family, the deceased have a friendly effect. Otherwise they cause anxiety. When given a proper place, they support the living in their lives instead of supporting them in the illusion that they should die.

**What about AIDS?

Being infected with the virus or contracting AIDS is not a family dynamic, not directly. Of course, people who get AIDS are mostly homosexuals, and homosexuality is a family dynamic. If I go back to the previous example, if there was an infant that died early and it was a girl, and then in the family there are only boys, then one of the boys has to represent a girl. Now, this leads to homosexuality, if a man has to represent a woman in a family. But when there is AIDS, the main issue is that they face their fate and destiny. From what I've seen, they usually don't have any illusions, they are easy to work with.

Regarding homosexuality, first I would like to say a few general things about the systemic point of view. Each person is an integral part of the relational system in which he or she lives, and each person is of equal value to the functioning of that system, i.e., each member of the family system is essential in his or her importance.

The differences in a social system allow it to be more durable and stable. There is a group conscience that excludes some members of the group for being different, but it acts at a different level than the systemic conscience that watches over the right of every member to be part of the family system. The fact that someone is excluded for being different has very serious consequences for the younger members of a family. I have seen many cases where a younger person suffered terribly because he or she identified with an older relative who had been excluded from the family because he or she was homosexual. Homosexuals are members of the family and as such should be recognized and valued. Otherwise, love is wounded. This fundamental recognition of the intrinsic dignity and value of every person makes it possible to look at differences openly.

On this basis, an unavoidable fact presents itself for homosexual couples: their love cannot lead them to have children. Procreation requires heterosexuality, and this fact cannot be ignored as if it did not exist or have consequences. In any childless couple relationship separation means less guilt, i.e., it is about two people only hurting each other. On the other hand, if a parental couple separates, this step has serious consequences for their children, so much caution is required of them so that their children do not suffer for what they do. This additional guilt makes separation more difficult for the parents, but, paradoxically, it also serves as a support for their relationship. Childless couples ¾ including homosexual couples ¾ cannot count on the support of these consequences to keep them together in times of crisis.

For homosexual couples, as for other childless couples interested in a lasting, loving relationship, it is especially important to make clear and conscious decisions about the goals and intentions of their relationships. Some goals are more likely to lead to lasting stability in a relationship than others. Wanting to avoid loneliness or a sense of emptiness, for example, is not a goal that is likely to support a lasting relationship between equals.

Each person has his or her own path in life ¾ one part is chosen, but the other is simply given by life itself, without really being able to choose it. This is the difficult part to deal with. The homosexual people I have worked with, even those convinced that they freely chose their sexual orientation, were caught in systemic dynamics, experiencing in their lives the consequences of what others in their system did or suffered. They were caught in the service of their system, and as children they were unable to defend themselves against the systemic pressure to which they were exposed. Therefore, this is for them the second issue to address: they carry something for the family.

I don't see homosexuality as something that needs to be changed, and whenever I work with homosexual people, homosexuality is not the primary issue. I simply try to bring to light any kind of implications that might be limiting the fullness of life, but I have no intention of changing anyone's sexual orientation.

**What kind of implications have you observed in your work with homosexuals?

I have been able to observe three patterns of systemic implications:

A child is pressured to play a person of the opposite sex in the system because there is no child of the same sex available. Thus, for example, a boy had to take on the role of his dead older sister because there was no girl among the other surviving children. Or the case of another son who had to play the role of his father's first girlfriend, who had been treated unfairly. This is the most painful and difficult pattern I have been able to observe.

A son feels the pressure to represent someone who was excluded from the family system or who was maligned by the system, even if the person in question is of the same sex. Homosexuals living in this pattern have the position of "outcasts". Thus, for example, a boy who was treated as the first boyfriend of the mother who contracted syphilis and then broke off the engagement. Although that boyfriend had acted honorably, he had been belittled and scorned by the child's mother. The son's feelings, the feeling of being scorned, were very similar to what that fiancé must have felt, as if they were his own feelings.

A son who remained caught in the mother's sphere, or a daughter who did not leave the father's sphere of influence, both unable to carry to completion the inner gesture of taking the one of their parents who belongs to the same sex.

What are the dynamics you have observed in working with addicts?** ** What are the dynamics you have observed in working with addicts?

When there is addiction, for example alcoholism, we have very strange constellations. In such families, the wife despises her husband. And she doesn't want the children to honor her husband or to go with him or his family. She says, "I am good for you, he is not good." And then the children take revenge on the mother, they prove to her that they are not good and that she is in error. So they take revenge. So it has become clear that during addiction, only men can take over the care of an addict, not women. Therapists for drug addicts should be men. But women who honor men, they can also help, only if they are not trying to help "the poor little addict" or something like that, because then they treat them as if they were children, and the drug addict has to become a man. And he becomes a man when he honors his father. There is a very simple image to go in this direction: for example, I put his father - in a Constellation - and behind him I put his grandfather, and behind him, the great-grandfather. And then, the addict leans against his father and that is a masculine force that strengthens him and helps him.

But on the other hand, many addicts are suicidal, and this is another dynamic, one that is found in families that are directed by the family consciousness towards some basic dynamics:

A child wants to follow a deceased person, for example the mother or the father, ... he develops a disease, he is prone to accidents or suicidal tendencies.

A child sees that his father wants to follow his own father, and says: "I will do it in your place Dad", and becomes anorectic.... "I'd rather disappear"... he wants to prevent his father from dying.

This is magical thinking and completely unconscious. Only in Family Constellation it is brought to light, then it can be exposed and we can find a solution within the family.

**How many times does a constellation have to be repeated?

There are no repetitions. It is done only once. The Constellation shows it and then the healing movement can start to operate. But it is not so easy, because if, for example, a child wants to die instead of his father, he feels innocent and big, but if he follows the solution... he feels small and guilty in a very special way... So, it requires a special development in the soul of that child to take these steps. So, it is not that one can make a cure or find a solution in the same way that one repairs a watch. We have to support the soul and find resources in the family for the client.

**What laws govern the behavior of those who belong to the family soul?

As I said before, family members behave as if they share a common soul, or a common consciousness, and as if they are all subject to a higher authority. It even appears that this authority follows certain laws and demands or demands certain actions:

Love Most Great

The first phenomenon we observe here is that the family members are closely linked by this greater soul, or shared family soul. This is true even to the extent that a child, whose mother or father dies when he is of a young age, feels the longing to follow them to death. Even parents or grandparents sometimes want to follow their children to death, and we can observe this dynamic even between partners. If one dies, the other often loses the desire to live.

**Balance and Compensation

The second phenomenon we notice, is that there is an urge to balance losses and gains between generations. This means that someone who has profited at the expense of another will pay for it with an equivalent loss to compensate. If those who benefited were also the perpetrators, their descendants are the ones who often end up paying. The family soul makes use of them in place of their ancestors, without anyone noticing. And if someone was guilty in an earlier generation, but did not face up to his guilt, then someone in a later generation will assume the atonement for that guilt. So, for example, he will kill himself. We have seen that with the Nazi murderers. And many of their descendants two or three generations later have a tendency to be suicidal and want to make amends.

**The Order of Precedence

In other words, the family soul favors those who came first over those who come later. This represents a third movement or natural order in the family soul. Someone who is born is prepared to die for someone who came earlier in the system, sacrificing his own life in an attempt to prevent the death of another family member. Or, the later family member may be atoning for the unresolved guilt of someone who came before. A daughter may be representing her father's former wife, and behaving toward him more as a mate than as his daughter. In such a case, she becomes her mother's rival. If the first wife was treated badly, the daughter may take on that woman's feelings toward both of her parents.

**Integrity

The fourth order of the family soul watches over the integrity of the family and demands that each member of the family has an equal right to membership. Later members of the family represent earlier members who were excluded or forgotten, thus honoring their right to membership, and restoring their membership by making room for them. Whenever a member is excluded or forgotten, then this kind of consciousness or soul takes someone from a later generation to make amends to the preceding person. And this person acts as the other person in their life.

This is just a brief summary of some of the movements of the family soul and its underlying orders. My books "Dual Happiness" (Ed. Herder, Barcelona, 1999) and "Recognizing What Is" (soon in Spanish) deal with this extensively.

**What kind of solutions can be found for a client? What constitutes the phenomenological approach here?

The phenomenological field of view ranges from a narrow point of view to a broad perception, extending from the near, or at hand, to distant views. This means that instead of looking only at the client, the therapist also looks at the whole family, and instead of looking only at the client and his family, he looks beyond them, to a larger field of phenomena and the larger soul that contains it all. An individual and his family are united by a larger field and are affected by the forces of a larger common soul, which seems to guide and direct them. Moreover, it seems clear that a problem can only be fully understood, and solutions can only emerge, in the context of a larger vision.

If I hope to be of help to the client's soul, I must see their soul being guided by the family soul. But if I only look at the client and his family, I can recognize what it was that led to systemic implications, but the solution does not present itself until I have made the connection with those forces and dimensions of the soul that are above the individual and his family. Those dimensions are beyond our influence. We can merely remain open and receptive in relation to them. When we focus on the essentials during a constellation, this greater soul can clarify a potential healing image, or phrase, or possibly the next step. The therapist makes himself or herself merely available to be touched by this greater soul by refraining from any direction on his or her part, and remaining deeply humble toward whatever he or she fears, even in the face of the fear of failure. Then, suddenly, an image, a word, or a phrase may emerge, guiding him to the next step. But it will always be a step into the darkness and the unknown. Only at the end will it become clear whether this step was appropriate or whether it actually helped. By adopting a phenomenological stance we get in touch with these dimensions of the soul, and this is more easily achieved by not-doing than by doing.

The focused presence of the therapist himself helps the client to adopt the phenomenological attitude as well, and to receive the insights and strengths he offers. Often the client cannot bear what is being revealed to him and closes against it. The therapist consents even to that. The therapist does not allow himself to get caught up in the tangled fate of the client and his family. This may seem cold or hard-hearted. But our experience has shown that, for both client and therapist, insights gained in any other way remain incomplete and tentative.

**Can you give us examples of those whose misfortune or death brought the family an advantage or a gain?

In constellations with descendants of those who have acquired a great fortune, the difficult fates of grandchildren and great-grandchildren, which cannot be explained by events in the family alone, have been remarkable. After representatives have been added for people who have suffered through the acquisition of such wealth, it became apparent that their sacrifice continued to have effects on the family for several generations.

It is the same case when, for example, there have been workers who have died during the construction of railroads or in oil production, and whose contribution to the prosperity of their employers was neither recognized nor honored.

**What if a family member was murdered?

I will give an example. It was in a supervision group. A therapist presented a client's situation. The father had killed his wife, the daughters were left and are now in the care of the wife's sister. And the two girls are very upset. I set up the man, the woman, the sister and the two girls. The woman immediately felt very afraid. She turned to her sister for protection. The man moved away. He wanted to leave. In fact, he killed himself after killing his wife. So I had to make them face the real issue. I brought the wife and made her lie on the ground to show that she is not alive, she is dead now, so she cannot just go to her sister for protection anymore. So I reestablished reality in this aspect. Then I brought the man back to look at his wife. And he looked at her and he could not move. Then I made him take a deep breath and suddenly it came out of him. A very, very deep pain. A tremendous pain. And then he fell to his knees and he looked at his wife and he started crying. Then, only then, he could really look at his wife. And then I made him lie down next to his wife, because that was the reality. He was dead too. And then the two of them, both of them, moved together with a very, very deep love. That's the strange thing, that after that they were united in deep love.

From this I concluded, and I have had similar experiences with other even more traumatic constellations, that in the end, if they both recognize each other as dead, then the dead... come together. Strange movement, that those who are dead come together, intertwine with each other, and come to peace with a very, very deep love.

Now, this movement, it seems to me, is only possible if the perpetrators and the victims, whoever they are, are in the service of a false rage that goes beyond them, far beyond them. And only if they all look to this greater force, then the antagonisms between them can cease and they bow with much humility in the soul before this greater force. And what unites them all I call the Great Soul and I have no better name for this, and this goes beyond the notion of morphogenetic fields, which is sometimes used to explain the phenomena of repeating patterns or forms in time and space, because the fields are fixed. The soul is something that moves, directs the course of history and personal life. And in this soul we participate. And instead of seeing the individual as having a soul, he participates in a soul.

This soul has several levels. On the surface there is a level of very hard laws. And underneath there is something very different. For example, I can set up a family, two people, and I know nothing, and suddenly, they are attracted by a force and they face the real issue, and this force directs them towards a solution, which goes beyond the laws that operate on the surface. If we can catch that force, we catch the healing force.

But perhaps one more thing about the constellation of the man who killed his wife and then committed suicide. The two daughters were very upset. One was filled with hatred. It was extremely clear, she was on her way to becoming a murderer with that hatred.

That one went to her father, she wanted to go to her father. And the other one was very upset in a different sense. She wanted to become a victim. I made them lie down next to their parents. Then they were united with them, then they could stand up; no more with hatred, no more with despair, and they could turn their backs on the dead, leave them alone and look at life. That was also a solution there.

**What happens when a family member becomes a victimizer or perpetrator?

With respect to perpetrators and victims, murderers often feel great, very strong when confronted with their victims. And then in their families, the weaker one assumes the atonement. In the constellation, when they are confronted with the victims, the victims become very very big, and the killers very very small. And so there is a certain kind of compensation that is achieved in that, at that level. And then the living are no longer involved, if that happens. This is a kind of healing ritual.

We have seen that what causes disturbances is that the living take on something that only the dead among them can accomplish. So, the healing movement would be for the living to look at the dead, let them make their move, look at them one more time, then turn around and look into the future. That would be the movement that goes to another level. Thus, interference in the domain of the dead causes disturbance to the living.

In many constellations involving descendants of murderers, for example the perpetrators during the Nazi Regime, it was clear that the grandchildren and great-grandchildren wanted to lie next to the victims, which implies a very great danger of suicidal tendencies. The solution was similar for both groups. The victims should be seen and acknowledged by all family members, who need to bow to them and mourn for them. Then, those who originally benefited, as well as the perpetrators, need to lie down next to the victims, and the other family members need to let them go into those domains. Only then will the descendants be relieved. And perhaps the living will look at each other in a different way.

**What happens when people get involved in civil wars or similar situations?

A recent observation I have made in family constellations, which can have effects in very hard historical events, is to allow the dead victims and the dead perpetrators to face each other - and in family constellations we can set up a way in which this is possible - then no outside intervention is needed. There will be a movement that will bring them all together, and everything that was considered unjust by the living, or that requires atonement, does not apply to the dead. They are reunited at a level where they are truly one.

We saw these dynamics in the constellations configured in our recent seminars in Spain, Brazil, and the one we just finished in Santiago de Chile. Also in Argentina, in relation to the so-called "Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo". In Santiago, you saw the constellation configured for the daughter of a union leader who "disappeared". After she said that those who disappeared or died like her brother numbered more than 1,500, I asked her to choose one representative for her father and five men to represent all the victims, one representative for the head of the perpetrators and five men to represent all the victimizers. I then placed each group in a semicircle facing each other, and we saw, without saying a word ourselves, how much pain there is among the missing and murdered victims, and the movement - which lasted about twenty minutes - that led them to their perpetrators, to face them and then to collapse and lie intermingled with the perpetrators also lying there, all peacefully dead. The last movement was remarkable in that the leader of the perpetrators, once lying on the ground, moved and positioned himself with his feet touching those of the leader of the victims, and there he remained still in peace.

In collective situations where there have been serious systemic implications involving great guilt and suffering, constellation work can be a very moving vehicle and a powerful tool for change towards reconciliation.

**In what other areas can your systemic method be applied?

There is now a tendency for us to extend the field in a broader sense than psychotherapy to include many other areas, because it seems that in these areas what I call the orders of love - which lead to entanglements - can be applied in a way that leads to finding solutions. Like for example the work we have done in prisons. We were in London last year and worked in three prisons; it was very surprising to see that the work was received very positively by the prisoners. In Germany there is now research on how to apply this work in prisons. My suggestion was that we first work with the murderers and their victims, because that seems to be the extreme case and shows the laws more clearly. I think that if we can get from them ways to resolve these difficult issues, then the work can be more easily extended into other fields. Another field is schools. Teachers can do this, apply it without being psychotherapists. Or in social work it can be easily applied. And to find solutions for relational difficulties as well, in organizations of all kinds, as we did in the workshop with entrepreneurs and business executives, here in Santiago on September 2. So we want to go beyond the realm of psychotherapy and apply the method in a broader area. And I think that is very much in harmony with what you want to achieve.

**I have seen that a Third International Conference on Family Constellations is going to take place in Germany in May 2001. What is going to be its main focus?

Its main focus is going to be on the perspectives of solving ethnic conflicts. Conflicts in families and communities caused by differences in religion, culture, and shared history; their consequences in the unconscious of the individual, the family and the nation; the transgenerational transmission of these consequences; solution attempts that can promote the establishment of a bridge between political and therapeutic decisions. These aspects will be thoroughly explored through lectures and workshops.

Successful "psycho-political" projects will be presented from different nations.

Humberto del Pozo: Thank you, dear professor, for the opportunity for such a moving and enriching conversation.

Bert Hellinger: Those were good questions... I was forced to reveal many secrets. My pleasure.

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